This is a true copy of KC2000 forum  Stringybark Creek News and Views page 1 

It follows on earlier threads on the same subject that were corrupted, starting with Stringybark Creek News, and  'SBC Upgrade Plans on display '. Both threads were damaged by disgruntled participants but with 'so much' time invested in these, I always kept back up copies that are now available in their original state.

The core of this debate was to identifying the true site of the Kelly gang / Police shootings at Stringybark Creek 1878.  The question was whether remains of two huts  found in 2002 were important to the Kelly story ?  We assert they were very important and would ultimately pin point the exact location where the police party had camped, - and were shot by the Kelly gang. It is important to know the truth and please read through these earlier threads ( links below by Carla ) to understand this debate and realise the validity of two old fireplaces of two huts where it was reported the police had camped.  Some opponent debaters seem bound by misguided texts without taking into account the hard evidence on the ground. 

This debate should allow scrutiny of all the arguments for or against. The evidence should be compelling to allow a conclusion. Several opponent debaters it should be noted were invited to take part in group investigation of the sites, this was headed by Mr Linton Briggs and myself, but as you will see politics always gets in the way of the truth, and as a result - truth may end up as a casualty This forum thread (below), started by Sheila Hutchinson helps to continue the quest to identify the true site at SBC. To date the thread at KC2000 has had more than 10.000 reads. However by comparison there have been 56 postings removed making the original thread an un readable debate and is a  travesty.       Bill Denheld

 

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Sheila Hutchinson
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Posted - 04/11/2009 :  21:00:47  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Sheila Hutchinson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
4th November 2009

Stringybark Creek News and Views

Hi All,

Thought I’d better start a new SBC thread however the Stringybark Creek News thread is still worth checking if you are interested in this area.

A bit of trivia: This year I have set-up two Kelly related displays for local events.
The first one was at Tolmie (formerly Wombat) for the 123rd Tolmie Sports that were held on the 14th February and the second one was for the Maindample Heritage Day held last Sunday the 1st November to raise funds for our local Fire Brigade.

The display at Tolmie featured Stringybark Creek, the place where the Kelly Gang was created on the 26th October 1878, and the plans for the Stringybark Creek upgrade.

When I learnt that ‘Neds’ armour that was used by the Mansfield Primary school students in their entry in the Wakakirri storytelling festival was to be on display at the Heritage Day, I decided to do a bit on Stringybark / Mansfield and Maindample’s association with the Kelly Story.

1871: 14 year old Archibald McPhail who lived in the Maindample area saw Isaiah ‘Wild’ Wright riding Mr Newland’s stolen chestnut mare past his father farm. As a result of this he went to Beechworth to give evidence and when he was about to return home he got diphtheria and died. ( indeed a sad event )

During the late 1860’s and early 1870’s MC Michael Kennedy (later Sgt) was stationed at the Maindample Police Camp and the Broken River Police Station. As part of his duties as Land Bailiff he inspected and reported on selections, including the one where we live !!

Some people were surprised to know that Maindample had a connection to the Kelly Story.

Bye for now. Sheila
 
kellycountry2000
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Posted - 12/11/2009 :  09:55:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
bump
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carla
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Posted - 16/11/2009 :  11:56:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Thank you Sheila,
Now that the dust has settled a new Stringybark thread is the best option.
Bill has uploaded 2 read only copies of the SBC threads before they were corrupted.
For those interested, here also are most of the Stringybark Creek threads to link to. Carla

Thread starters -

Sharon- SBC Upgrade Plans on Display  
( lost thread started May 2008 ran till April 2009 - more than 2357 reads )

http://www.ironicon.com.au/newforum/sbcupgradeplansondisplay.htm


Sheila- Stringybark Creek News     
( lost thread started May till Nov 2009 had more than 3212 reads )
http://www.ironicon.com.au/newforum/stringybarkcreeknews.htm



Robert - SBC Heritage Listed    
(
lost thread started Sept 2009 - more than 572 reads )
 here is a copy (Read only)
http://www.ironicon.com.au/newforum/sbcheritagelisted.htm

 

Joe.D - Stringybark Creek July 2009 
( current thread started July 2009 - more than 481 reads )

http://kellycountry2000.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=661
 Only if you're a member
but if you're not, here it is (Read only)
http://www.ironicon.com.au/newforum/stringybarkckjuly2009.htm



Bruce - Burman pic Why looking South

(
lost thread started July 2009 - more than 181 reads )
here is a copy (Read only)
http://www.ironicon.com.au/newforum/burmanpicwhylookingsouth.htm



Fitzy - Stringybark Creek. A police perspective 

( current thread started Aug 2009 - more than 153 reads )

http://kellycountry2000.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=716     
Only if you're a member
but if you're not, here it is
(Read only)
http://www.ironicon.com.au/newforum/stringybarkcreek_apoliceperspective.htm


To date SBC topic reads total more than 16.300 counting this page


 

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marcus
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Posted - 16/11/2009 :  19:46:14  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Thanks Carla

makes the task a bit easier

 
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Sheila Hutchinson
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Posted - 20/11/2009 :  21:00:17  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Sheila Hutchinson's Homepage  Reply with Quote


Hi All,

Stringybark Creek etc; If you wish to view a few photographs of the 'Grass Roots' displays I have put up this year go to
http://www.nedonthenet.com/GRASSROOTS.htm

Bye for now. Sheila
 
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Sheila Hutchinson
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Posted - 02/12/2009 :  20:44:59  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Sheila Hutchinson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
2nd December

Hi All,

Just thought I'd post these details on this Stringybark Creek thread, although there is another thread running about this subject.

Victorian Police Museum exhibition

“Ambush: Ned Kelly & the Stringybark Creek Murders” open from the 4th January 1010 until June 2010

Will look forward to reading forum members comments on the content of this exhibition. Hope the Museum at least have some of the re-discovered reports etc on display. Hope to get a chance to see it for myself.

Sheila


 
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Joe.D
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Posted - 05/12/2009 :  10:29:01  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Joe.D's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Sheila,

As per Elizabeth Marsden the vic police will be displaying the newly discovered documents, one of which will be McIntyres sbc sketch. On the 24th nov this Sketch was shown to those that attended the Ned Kelly uncovered night......I also managed to sketch out the said sketch, however I'm looking fwd to viewing the attached notes.

Joe.D
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Sheila Hutchinson
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Posted - 24/01/2010 :  22:06:06  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Sheila Hutchinson's Homepage  Reply with Quote


Hi All,

Went for a drive up to SBC on the 20th to check on how the redevelopment work is progressing.
Pleased to say a fair amount of the work has now been done and this project is gradually coming to fruition and I think it looks GREAT !
I believe the next stage is to install an information shelter in the campground. It’s hard to say when this will happen as during the fire season most of the DSE crews are unable to work on this project.

Latest photos, http://www.nedonthenet.com/sbc_2010.htm thanks to Dave.

Bye for now. Sheila


 
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carla
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Posted - 17/04/2010 :  20:11:55  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Hello all,

At long last Bill has completed his research regarding the ' authentic location of the police camp' at SBC.

The investigation proved the site was on the Western bank of SBC near the two huts fireplaces and not the eastern bank.

Bill's document has been sent to all the relevant authorities.


Composite image uses image of Arboriculturalist Steve Parton on the slope near the two huts fireplaces April 2009 and part Burman photo of Oct 1878 -
Burman photo Image Citation PROV 0030-010-001- VPRS 4966 Consignment P0 Unit 2 Item 30 Record 1 Document: Photo of Wombat Ranges where troopers were shot.


For those interested to read Bill's document see link at -
http://www.ironicon.com.au

Carla

Edited by - carla on 07/05/2010 15:07:06

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Joe.D
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Posted - 18/04/2010 :  04:53:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Joe.D's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Carla, (Oma)

WOW! What a surprise....I had only just returned from a days trip to SBC. Perfect weather, great lunch and of course a bit of research on the side after a well earned sleep I'll be sure to read Bills latest!!

here is the latest guys......

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/kelly-gang-shootout-site-in-dispute/story-e6frf7kx-1225854979953

Chat soon,

Joe.D
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marcus
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Posted - 26/04/2010 :  11:19:41  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
All

I have had a precursory read of Bill's findings and am most intrested in now visiting the site to take in the detail.

Will need to sit down and digest it in more detail though.

thanks for sharing this with us Carla and Bill.

regards

Marcus

 
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kellycountry2000
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Posted - 07/05/2010 :  18:58:31  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
The forum software has a few bugs in it, i dont know what happened to carlas last post listed as the 7/5/10
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carla
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Australia
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Posted - 19/05/2010 :  21:17:49  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Thanks Bruce, I don't know what happened.

Following the Herald Sun article, here is the Mansfield Courier 28th April 2010 edition. Pictured are the fireplace stones (foreground) of possibly the Shingle built hut Ned wrote about in his Jerilderie letter. The background ridge is the slope as in the Burman photo but the view angle is from low down ground level looking South west. Carla

PS, The mesh was put over the fireplace rocks by DSC after Bill was going to put it on himself. The mesh ensures the rocks remain intact.

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kenny t
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Australia
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Posted - 24/05/2010 :  23:48:05  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Great work Bill and the other researchers. It makes very interesting reading and after spending a lot of time myself over the years in that area, it is going to be hard to prove against your conclusions.
kenny t
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carla
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Posted - 27/05/2010 :  02:06:40  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Thank you Kenny T, Bill has a further revelation to make -

Just in case there are still those who don't know what site to believe in, i,e,
East bank or West bank, someone we know with a very keen eye who has studied the Burman photos has identified a fireplace structure in the Burman1 photo.
See for yourself. Notice the unmistakable rounded rock shapes hardly visable in the original image below left.


Bill's computer enhanced image is now featured in his final document.
The fireplace and the slope together provides compelling evidence Burman took his photo at the site of two huts on the Western bank of the creek.

Unlike the seated man sitting on the log, the image below shows a figure sitting on the fireplace rocks, ( the same fireplace rocks as in the Burman photo), and a figure on the background slope, ( the same slope as in the Burman photo)




For those interested to read Bill's document see link at -
http://www.ironicon.com.au

Carla
 
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robert mcgarrigle
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Posted - 27/05/2010 :  11:17:24  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
May I ask who is going to pay for the yellow brick road to the wrong place?As I have said previously blind freddy can see it is WRONG.Well done Bill and the team.
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carla
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Posted - 29/05/2010 :  16:40:54  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Hello all,
Good point Robert, Bill has suggested in his SBC document that the yellow brick road continue through to the true site on the west bank.

http://www.pixmaker.com.au/twohuts/images/terryscottbulletsheppnews15may.jpg

The bullet found was north of the two huts site just about where Scanlan would have been when shot, so the bullet is not the one that passed through Ned's beard, but may have been discharged into the ground at the moment of Scanlan being shot? (Of course this is conjecture). The important thing is that the bullet type was from a Spencer Carbine Rifle, a rare firearm at the time.

Again agreeing and dis agreeing with Ian Jones, that it is a significant find no matter where it was found North or south of the campsite.
The fact the bullet has been found on the west bank some 40 metres north of the two huts site, between the road and the swamp is where the Bridle track used to run, but has been destroyed by the road.
And, when will Ian Jones concede his east bank site may be wrong?

Carla

Edited by - carla on 29/05/2010 16:44:48

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Joe.D
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Australia
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Posted - 29/05/2010 :  19:08:45  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Joe.D's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bill/Carla,

Good research!!

The Bullet is an intriguing find to say the least. Is it correct to say that Terry has physically shown you the exact spot where the bullet was found?

Bill you say the Bullet was found some 40 metres north of the two hut site...... would this place it in the vicinity of the declivity that McIntyre refers to in his m/s? I place the declivity some distance away from the hut site......be great for us readers to get some bearing as to its location.

P.S....Thx for all the updates...

Joe.D

Edited by - Joe.D on 29/05/2010 19:10:28

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carla
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Australia
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Posted - 30/05/2010 :  15:06:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Hello Joe Oma here,

You wrote

quote:


Is it correct to say that Terry has physically shown you the exact spot where the bullet was found?



Answer, Bill and I were shown the spot by Terry, and Bill makes the following points,
If you go to his SBC document on page 10 a map shows the words 'Bridle track' a dotted line crossing the road, just near the B is the spot.

Then you ask,

quote:


would this place it in the vicinity of the declivity that McIntyre refers to in his m/s?
 


Answer, No. A declivity is an old fashioned word for downward slope ( Macquarie Dictionary)
When McIntyre refers to a declivity he refers to a slope near where they camped (or pitched their tent). Their tent was pitched on a rise overlooking the logs as the scene in the Burman photo to his left (if he was facing the creek Easterly), and to his right was the slope as in the Burman photo background. The bullet was found some 40 metres downstream from the two huts site on the edge of the swampy ground.
This view below is westerly and the road level can be made out behind Terry Scott's right shoulder.
Note, reference to the words 'south declivity' as near site 3A has been removed was not where the police had camped. Bill


The forked tree is a good marker and could well be near where the original Kelly tree stood.


Again, for those interested to read Bill's document see link at -
http://www.ironicon.com.au

Carla.

PS, Oh yes, that Rotunda shelter barely come in handy when it started to rain.

 

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Joe.D
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Australia
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Posted - 30/05/2010 :  17:42:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit Joe.D's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Oma how are you?

Hope you didn't get too wet under the rotunda you look nice'n'cosy sitting under it... hehehehe the nights are getting colder & I could almost smell those hot soothing cuppa's you whip up

Bill thx for the speedy reply....and as always answered with enthusiasm. Keep the updates coming in.

Joe.D
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kenny t
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Posted - 02/06/2010 :  23:58:01  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I take my hat off to guys with the research you are doing. All good stuff. Wow what about the bullet find?
I am with you Joe, keep the updates coming.
kenny t
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kellycountry2000
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Posted - 05/06/2010 :  11:25:20  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
The pdf on bills investigation can be found here

http://www.ironicon.com.au/stringybark_ck_the_authentic_location.pdf
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carla
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Australia
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Posted - 05/06/2010 :  14:31:18  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Hi Bruce,
I am using Carla's login because I don't have mine anymore.

Referring to your recent other thread " What is the 'Creek' at SBC " wherein you quote McIntyre as stating " the tent was 70 yards from the creek" you then go on to say -
 

quote:


" If the water coarse of the creek is used for measurements then some of the positions used by bill do not add up"



At Linton's preferred site 3B near the Kelly tree, (see locations map page 10 at the above link), 70 yards from the creek places the tent 20 feet west of the road.

At the two huts site, 70 yards from the creek also places the tent west of the road.

What makes you think my measurements or positions do not add up ?
What measurements or positions?

Please explain,
Bill
 

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kellycountry2000
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Posted - 06/06/2010 :  14:37:50  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Hi bill I dont know why you dont use your own login as it should be working I can only test it if i change the password, and I have already told you that.
I would be happy to explain my remark with some scale maps,based on the maps at the forest website, hopefully they are correct if not I will apologize to you, based on your public conclusion that the PC was around where the fire places are today, when you use scale maps based on the forestry maps, real contour maps and MC's info the logs seem to cross about 3 meters east of SBC road, at the fireplaces site, but my problem is I dont have a real waypoint for the creek, , I really need to get to SBC to take a waypoint,to see if the creek on the forest maps match to within a few meters by any chance do you have a waypoint for the creek below where the fire places are , that is the waypoint that you have been basing your measurements for the 70 yards on?
or in other words Mc said the tent was 70 yards EAST from the creek
if you draw a line WEST from the the creek and measure 70 yards, what is your waypoint where the line hits the creek ?

BTW do I have your permission to reproduce your drawings and photos, who knows I may be able to prove some of your ideas

also a couple of other questions Bill
do you agree that the tent was 70 yards from the creek,
and what do agree to that is the creek today, given the mining and water flows down hill at the loswest point, blah, blah etc.

KC2000

standby for a few days so i can host the maps, and get a waypoint
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kellycountry2000
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Posted - 06/06/2010 :  16:38:40  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
This is the waypoint I need where the 70 yard or 64 mtr line hits the creek, the blue star is a real gps waypoint for the two FP's, + or - the 4 meter EPE, obviously I have rubbed it out,
given some of words Mc uses, the GPS EPE is close enough.
Of course if the creek is more westerly then the tent is further up the hill, and if its more easterly then its further down the hill


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carla
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Australia
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Posted - 07/06/2010 :  12:09:56  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Hello Bruce,

In the recent past you had deleted my membership as I do recall. I did not remove myself from this forum. I will try again to login sometime.

The Forest website maps detail and contours are very low resolution. The 70 yards McIntyre referrers to is merely an indication I believe.

Do you think Mc went back with a tape measure? Given he also gave us a distance from the (fire) logs to the tent as 20 or 25 yards gives
us a range of his in accuracy. His measurements are only estimates.

70 yards could be Mc's 70 steps or feet or a typo error. For example, you say in your post " 70 yards East from the creek, -
when you should have written West, a simple mistake, so to hang an argument on one 70 yards distance is a bit blinkered when we do have
a slope and the fireplaces of two huts that can be made out in the Burman photos.

The Burman photos are of the place where Lonigan was shot and not where the police had camped.

You wrote,

quote:


" do you agree the tent was 70 yards from the creek? "



Answer, No, but maybe a shorter distance according to the hard evidence on the ground at the two huts site.
Maybe the tent was 70 yards from the creek placing it west of the road, and contrary to where I have it placed in the accompanying sketch plan.

By all means use material and images from my investigation document to make your point, but be aware some map sketches are from 2009
and may require to be redrawn as more conclusive detail emerges. Do not copy the image, rather please only use images having a URL address
as follows http://www.pixmaker.com.au/twohuts/images/sbcglennplanandbillslayout.jpg




Readers may be interested to note that two posts of a hut in the Burman photo 2 are of what I believe is the side of the hut and not the end.

The fireplace structure overgrown with grasses hide the man's boots. This scenario works well and shows the logs were located between the two fireplaces.

Bill

Edited only to shorten the text lines as the images determine page width
 


Edited by - carla on 07/06/2010 21:15:30


 

max
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Posted - 07/06/2010 :  19:27:07  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Bill you deserve a great deal of respect for your hard work. However, there are many flaws I can see from where I’m standing. You claim typo error, estimates etc. For the love of God the bushies of yesteryear used yards/chains as a way of life, as we now use the GPS. I give credit where it’s due. McIntyre states 70 yards from the creek, ok maybe it was 69 or 71 yards, but to say otherwise it’s wrong. Although I don’t claim to be an expert, I have in more recent times visited the scene in question and have taken your work into play as I did with McIntyre’s. I have come to the conclusion what you propose to be the true site is in fact incorrect by a long shot. The two hut site you claim to be the true site is well short of the 70 yards not to mention other facts. It appears as though (now Bill don’t take this the wrong way) you are seeking some form of fame or glory. Put this aside and get down where the truth lays in wait.

Bill many of us Kelly folks are shaking our heads in disbelief. You fought thick and hard to prove your east bank theory only to accept the actual site is now on the west bank. Incidentally this has proved to be a God send for you at the cost that many of us wouldn’t be any wiser. I’ll assume you are putting your money on the fact that an incline (Rise) is visible and in close proximity to the hut site. If this is so, then it’s fair to say you have discounted McIntyre’s sketch, distances, word etc. I for one would not be pitching a tent within 25 yards from the camp fire as per your notes. Why? Because it would place the tent on a downward slope.

On the morning I arrived at the scene I was fortunate enough to make contact with a retired surveyor whilst he went about his business plotting and noting his findings. He concentrated his efforts a little ways north of your two hut site. We discussed the issue in length and he also agrees to disagree with your theories.

End of discussion.

max

 

Edited by - max on 07/06/2010 21:48:02


 

carla
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Australia
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Posted - 09/06/2010 :  13:03:57  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit carla's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Max, I can understand your confusion. The whole scenario is a difficult set of numbers.

Please read my document slowly and try to understand what I am saying.
You have not read my previous posting where in I state the two huts site is not where they camped.
Their camp ( tent) was on a flat portion of the rise some 25 yards westerly from the logs fire near the road.

You take issue with me about McIntyre's map ; Mc's map shows North and two logs and a tent.
The Burman photo shows three main logs, the actor figures are looking North. ( as proven by what McIntyre said )
But McIntyre's (map) two logs are not the same two facing logs as in the Burman photos. They are the right front and right rear logs.
Please read my document pages 17, 18 and 19 and refer to map on page 11.

As far as my East bank conviction early on and my push to get the east bank site recognised with a walking track was because it was plain wrong that thousands of visitors were led to believe the Kelly tree and the picnic ground were the site of the shoot out as the signage by Ian Jones indicated.

I went along with the East bank site as confirmed with my finding and identifying the two old fireplaces on the western bank in 2002. But Ian Jones denigrated this proposal in public on ABC radio 774 AM for reasons he best knows. I have always had doubts about the east bank because a slope there was insufficient and too far away. However with little or no opportunity to discuss this with Mr Jones (who controls everything at SBC), he set out to block any other views. As a result I was not invited to be part of the SBC reference group the DSE had organised for future works that were the result of myself with the MHS to have a historically accurate site made public.

It was not until after the Glenrowan dig documentary that Gary Dean suggested the SBC site needed a full investigation and I took that up. I contacted Linton Briggs, Kelvyn Gill, Gary Dean and Glenn Standing to be part of it as a good cross sectional group, but this group failed because one senior member had strong long 'held' beliefs the site was on the west bank but near the Kelly tree, and the majority of the group went along with that despite evidence to the contrary. It was during this time the key factors of the two huts started to fall into place.

Bill

PS, Bruce I tried again to logon but it failed to let me in
 
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kC2000
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Posted - 09/06/2010 :  14:34:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit bill denheld's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Bill your account works fine
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alan
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24 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2010 :  19:40:08  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Bill come off the grass, ever since you and gary found the two hut site you have always given the impression that your life's goal is to discredit and destroy Ian Jones theory that the police camp was on the east side of the creek, even after he belted you at beechworth, you have always maintained that the camp was at the hut site and no where else.

That has always been the theory that you have pushed, that is the perception that people have, there is nothing that you can say or do or hide behind to change the perception people have of your theory, you wanted to push your theory that the police camp was at the hut site, now you are stuck with it.

Edited by - alan on 09/06/2010 19:41:16

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bill denheld
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Australia
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Posted - 09/06/2010 :  21:56:52  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit bill denheld's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  Delete Reply
Thanks Bruce, the password you provided me worked. I will record it.

Well well well what's new, the eternal knockers are at it again.

Alan,

The two huts site I found in 2002 then became very important to the story. Ian Jones denigrated this proposal on public radio.

You say Ian Jones belted me ( which he did - not very gentlemanly like in public)
saying to me " KEEP OUT OF MY WAY"

I have not always maintained the police camp was on the west bank ( huts site) until I re started research in April 2009 with regard to the Burman photo.

Where is your research to prove that I am not right ? If you can prove me wrong I will gladly come off the grass.

I'm glad to be stuck with it. Lets get history right. It's a pity Ian Jones cannot come to the debate table !

Bill
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