This is a true copy of a forum debate about SBC where the Police were shot by the Kelly gang in 1878. These following 25 pages were lost when one of the participants complained to forum host ProBoards.com. Despite numerous efforts to have the whole forum re-instated by me, this topic was one of several threads on DEE's 'Ned Kelly Truth forum' that questioned the many mythologized elements of the Kelly story, and is the reason for much personal attack on those that may have alternative views of how Kelly history is recorded. Bill Denheld May 2014


Man stands at fireplace of one of two huts, the police tent stood behind where this photo was taken.The Kelly gang came from left of little hill above.


The Great Debate about Stringy-Bark Creek  
PAGE 9

 

Dee
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Post by Dee on Mar 6, 2014 at 1:07pm

Yes I would like to know how he did it too!

By the way Bill, its Poor Flower!
And I don't think the CSI blokes are wasting our time but some others are for sure!

That image SBC36.jpg is an amazing construction Bill. Fascinating. It contains an enormous amount of information and seems to fit so many of the pieces together. Its something that you can spend a long time poring over.

I would like to know what happened to the bullet from the Carbine found by Terry Scott? How do you explain it being found to the north of the site? It would seem to be a crucial finding.

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2014 at 1:08pm by Dee

Horrie
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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 1:17pm

Apologies all round. This argument has been going on so long I am confused sometimes about who did what and when, particularly when quoting someone else. It is often very unclear. But thank you Glenn and Bill for setting me straight.

The map came from the pixmaster url for that .jpeg. Loading the page location with the .jpeg name added after a forward slash didn't work. Then I found the pixmaster file by drilling down. That worked immediately.

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 1:19pm

Bill when you can figure out where the tent was pitched at your site I may listen to you.

I have come to realise that I have been debating a bloke who cannot make sense out of his own conclusions.

So for now I will happily continue painting my house.

But will leave you with this thought – the further back the camera goes the higher the slope needs to be. Perhaps you should consider this when you next produce a "properly" scaled image at the two fireplaces.

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 1:25pm

Pixmaker!

 

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Post by bill on Mar 6, 2014 at 4:22pm


Lets try this from my laptop.

www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbcmappictures.jpg

Looks like the trick is only to insert www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbcmappictures.jpg  after the http:// in the insert pop down window

Horrie, I own Pixmaker and host a lot of pictures from there, so it would appear it is the method of inserting the www.---- .jpg after the http://
do not remove the http:// from the pop down insert window, just add the www. -- - - - - - -

Well Dee, looks like you may have to insert a few images for me in other postings. Are you able to do that for me? 

For Glenn, you can see clearly where McIntyre placed the tent - this co incides with my detailed base map on which the views are placed. Look for the Yellow markings on both the map and the Scene which was drawn with the help of McIntyre himself. Is that good enough. DO YOU see the tent there ? Its been on the base map since 2010.
Bill
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbcmappictures.jpg

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2014 at 5:25pm by bill

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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 5:00pm

And on and on it goes.
SO here again it becomes necessary to ensure the record (for what it is worth if you have the time to flip flop between forum pages and postings some relevant to the topic and others simply tit-for-tat crud (although BD seems to think that the “history” of who did what way-back-then adds any meaningful words to the TOPIC and persists with this way of rubbish words).
And Horrie you seem to be either a clone or are trying hard to emulate your idol.
HERE WE GO:
Horrie: “So you must mean a logging tramway (and you must know tramway expert and author Norm Houghton). Why didn't you say so?”
Try mentioning Peter Evans – why didn’t you mention him in your question?
Peter is the author of a two volume “A Study of historic sawmill and tramway sites in the North East Forest Region Victoria (excluding Box- Ironbark Area)” .
Available at the Department of Natural Resources (Now Department of Primary Industries) Knowledge Resource Centre. Two volumes Ref: 333.7516099455 EVA.
It includes the work done at Stringybark Creek.

And more drivel from Horrie:
"I've spent the whole evening seeing how Ian Jones triumphed over Bill and CSI in getting his wacky site approved by DSE officials who were easily fooled.
The CSI site (or, rather, the Linton Briggs site) was presented by CSI in 2009"
A whole evening – well done Horrie but as your words give no indication of what you did then try this so there is no misinterpretation by you:
You need to read the CAE Ned Kelly Seminar papers Presented on 13 and 14 November 1993 (at Beechworth) for a full understanding of how Ian Jones arrived at his conclusion as to the site subsequently developed as the site now known to be wrong.
Get yourself a copy from the Council for Adult Education or get the CSI report and read Appendix 1.

Ian Jones's site is shown with a purple triangle; Linton Briggs's (CSI) by green triangles and Bill's Two Huts site by yellow triangles.
Don't ask me why the triangles. The amateur sleuths from CSI never explained what they meant.
So... I have had to do what CSI today can't do - provide an illustration of their site!
The CSI Team started their work in 2009. We did not present anything, in fact the contents of early work were to be restricted to CSI (Which included BD at the time) by not publically providing any link to a site of WIP. Didn't happen though! The report of the team’s work was FIRST GIVEN TO GOVERNMENT AGENCIES in JULY 2011and only in PDF hard copy with a CD.
The issue of triangles and the drawing you say you post to provide an illustration of their site because you have had to do what CSI today can’t do has now been addressed by Glenn but to make sure you understand (your analytical and investigative skills are indeed pathetic) – THE TEAM SPENT MANY DAYS POST THE SHORT TIME WHEN BD WAS INVOLVED WITH THE TEAM AND IF YOU MUST POST ERRONEOUS STUFF THEN ITS TIME YOU GOT TO THE STATE LIBRARY or get yourself to BDs place so you can read his copy of a very early draft bereft of much material that was included in the July 2011 report.

And again from Horrie:
"why a small handful of people have spent six years back-stabbing him for his thousands of research hours in rain and scorching suns, and patient presentations.
Why is his Two Huts site so disturbing to the Ned Neanderthals? Why have former mates like the CSI geriatric chumps turned against him? Why do useless time-wasters like Pooflower and Sarah attack him relentlessly. Many of Bill's noisiest critics have never been to the Two Huts site".
More dribble – research hours – oh how little he did to go and find all of the material that the CSI team was ultimately able to uncover (and still to this day ignored by BD) which provided many important clues to enable the CSI team to have no doubt that the team had correctly established the true site – as have many others who have undertaken their own assessments (and who also persevered in rain and scorching suns.
Ponder why it seems BD stands alone in his claim. Yes he has a few adherents who peddle (on blind faith alone often) his stuff and there are others who have turned away in favour of the CSI site.

And yet more from Horrie:
"I see the triangles in the 2009 CSI presentation are photo views. What photos are these? If, in relation to Bill's Two Huts site, they are the Burman photos, they are showing the wrong direction. Misleading information always is nearly impossible to undo".
Enough said above. Ask BD what photos are these. Well spotted Horrie, misleading information you say – well I repeat ask BD to whisper in your ear.

Now a word from BD:
"The StringyBark Creek Investigation webpage started out as the vehicle for the team's findings back in July 2009".
Yes it did but not for long - see above; and I just make an observation in general about web pages and the web page/url/ and content therein. Lets say the “webmaster” / admin or similar is the only way content can be inserted or deleted or changed at the whim of the gatekeeper, then it becomes somewhat a moot point about the “agreements” of content.

More from BD:
"He was obviously there LOOKING down - overlooking the police tent from the little hill".
The little hill does not fit within the total descriptive panorama recorded by the reporter.
Try looking carefully and then understanding the survey results that I have mentioned earlier in this forum topic and it becomes obvious (to all except those who cannot accept that a professional survey is irrefutable primary evidence) that the only area that meets the survey profile is to the North of the rock piles and corresponds with the notation on a map of 1884 - Scene of the Police murders by the Kelly Gang. Just SIX years after the event!
The map is in McMenomy’s book.
So he was obviously there LOOKING down from the high point to the Immediate South of the police camp site. Its not a “little Hill” but a fully formed high point along the traverse section shown by Survey (and observation if you are at SBC)
And:
"PS, Dee, we are not wasting our time here, only with these CSIs, Poor flours and confederates. It all reminds me of what poor old Copernicus had to endure with his proposal the Earth going around the Sun. Poor old Copernicus had to wait forty years before Galileo was to prove his theory".

The flat earthers were also around and it took a long time to get them to see the light (although perhaps some today can continue to prove the hypothesis. He still can’t bring himself to correctly acknowledge Poorflower even though you made your thoughts very clear and plain earlier.

And the first bit of good stuff from Horrie.
"The map came from the pixmaster url for that .jpeg. Loading the page location with the .jpeg name added after a forward slash didn't work. Then I found the pixmaster file by drilling down. That worked immediately".
You perhaps need to whisper in BDs ear that you as have many others been able to for quite a while can get into and peruse to their hearts delight the stored stuff. In other places this would be considered a potential security matter as there are snoops and hackers lurking throughout the net.

 

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Post by bill on Mar 6, 2014 at 6:12pm

Kelvyn, do you feel better now?

You wrote under this helpful entity -" And Me Yet again' 5 March at 4:22 pm

Kelvyn, you don't need to be shouting with all those capitals, we can hear you ok.

I don't have the books that you mentioned by Norm Houghton or Peter Evans about Tramways along SBC.
But you say they are provable that -

" PROVABLE BY BEING ABLE TO LOCATE THE REMAINS OF A SIGNIFICANT TRAMWAY THAT PROGRESSED ALONG THIS SIDE BETWEEN THE ROAD RESERVE AND THE CREEK AND STILL THE REMAINING"

Are you saying there were tramways along the western bank of SBC between the SBC road ? Have you seen them yourself?

Then you harrang Horrie with-
THE CSI TEAM HAS NEVER REFERRED TO THE LOCATION OF THE POLICE CAMP AS THE KELLY TREE SITE WHICH YOU FLOG AS BEING A TRUTH ! STOP ACTING LIKE A FOOL.

Kelvyn, really, are you now saying your site does not include the Kelly tree in your site?

Bill

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2014 at 6:14pm by bill

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Post by bill on Mar 6, 2014 at 6:35pm

Dee,
Terry Scott was running his detector around SBC with a mate years ago well before I became interested in the area. He was looking for the brother of that 16 oz nugget that young Mr Archer had found on top of the Granite at SBC.

During the filming of the Glenrowan Inn, archaeology, Terry turned up and was interviewed by TV Chanel 9 Prime. Shortly after I asked him if he would show me the bullet and where he had found it. He said, oh I'm not prepared to say ! I said why not? he said because I don't want people to know. I told him of my interest and he had read my story when in 1985, I had detected some bullet lead at Kelly's creek and referred him to my webpage but I did not know i would within that year be conducting the search for the dreaded police camp site there, and leading up to that time we basically were all guided by the work of Ian Jones, his site on the eastern bank of SBC. We all basically believe this was the site, except perhaps maybe it was at the two huts site?

Months later I contacted Prime9 but they said they could not help with his name- but the lady remembered that he was a hair dresser in Shepparton. Several phone calls to hairdressers in Shepparton, could not help. As it turned out one of our neighbours was the owner of the Shepparton News and I asked him if there was any way their staff could track this chap down. When I told them the story they became quite interested to published the story. Someone at Shepp News knew of a Barber just out of town, because he had seen the bullet there for show and tell to his customers. They gave me his name and phone No and I arranged to meet Terry at SBC.

I had made sure not to reveal about our research to Terry. We met and I said where do we go ? He said follow me. He trekked us through the bush over and around like following his track onto the east bank from where he remembered, and then crossed a swampy creek and stopped near a large forked swamp gum. Here is where it was- down in this mud. This site is about 30-40 m from where I had found the fireplaces in 2002.

People will say, oh yes how co-incidental for it to be found there, but I have witnesses to verify all this, namely my friend Bill Tauschke and my wife Carla who followed every step of the way.


People will say, oh, Constable Scanlan was going up the creek and the Kelly's were shooting down the creek, so why was that Spencer rifle bullet down the creek, and not up near the police camp?

It is my thought and explanation that while Scanlan did fire one shot that passed through Ned Kelly's beard, it was then that all shots were aimed to Scanlan's direction and when he was hit under the arm pit, this threw him around, off his horse and fell clumsily on his all fours and accidentally discharged his rifle as he landed. So the bullet may simply have buried itself into the soft mud at an oblique angle.

Gordon Burne, the Spencer rifle expert sometime later attended a meeting at SBC with a small group of about 20, he gave us a talk, and showed us his Spencer rifle that he said was the exact same model as was later issued to the Vic police force , and he verified the bullet Terry had found could only have come from that model Spencer rifle. Gordon is a highly respected collector.

Bill

 
www.pixmaker.com.au/twohuts/images/spencercarbinebullet2326.jpg

h
pixmaker.com.au/twohuts/images/spencercarbinebullet2326.jpg
 

www.pixmaker.com.au/twohuts/images/terryscottbulletsheppnews15may.jpg

http://pixmaker.com.au/twohuts/images/terryscottbulletsheppnews15may.jpg

Last Edit: Mar 6, 2014 at 6:46pm by bill

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Post by Dee on Mar 6, 2014 at 9:11pm

I have deleted a post by sarah from this thread, in keeping with my intention expressed elsewhere that inappropriate Posts are not going to be tolerated any longer. 

 

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 9:28pm

Sarah, you are on your last warning from Dee...



 

 

 

Horrie
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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 10:17pm

Bill, how on earth did you manage to stay awake during those early CSI meetings? They must have been interminable.

Now Kelvyn and Glenn, the next time you sit down at your ancient teletype machines - imagine each word is costing you a dollar. Kelvin, you're up for $1280 because that's how many words you wasted in your long-winded earlier comment.

Make sure the '
Irony' button is set to off, and the 'Be Brief' button is on and flashing brightly.

Write yourself a note. Fold it so you can't help seeing it as you prattle along. It should read "Stick to point otherwise Bill, Dee, Horrie and others will be all over me like a vd rash! Take prozac like good boy"

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 10:32pm

Ooops! Those cracks about vd and prozac were way outa line! Bad me. But I hate it when my family complain about me snoring when I read your posts...

 

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Post by sarah on Mar 6, 2014 at 11:01pm

So Dee, shifting the goal posts again. Looks like Horrie is really running the show not you. Dee freely lets you deride others. Hmmmm!

And While you are at it;
Horrie, you state Mar 6, 2014 0:41:49 GMT 11;

“Many of Bill's noisiest critics have never been to the Two Huts site.”

Who are these critics you claim have never been to the Two Huts site? I am intrigued at your self-proclaimed knowledge, even though you state you have trouble following this debate and have to read things slowly. Please name these charlatans so we are all aware of their mischievous narratives.

Just help you out, I have written this slowly to help you comprehend it.

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 6, 2014 at 11:08pm

I don’t get it. I saw Sarah’s post and I thought she asked Horrie a reasonable question. I do however find what Horrie posted offensive.


Just my opinion.


 

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 7, 2014 at 12:02am

Brendon, what is so offensive about saying "Sarah, you are on your last warning from Dee..."? That's a fact, not an opinion.

"Sarah" has posted on this forum 54 times in a shrill outpouring of negativity, hate and bile. "She" has bagged Dee endlessly, slagged the MacFarlane book and heaped criticism on Bill. Not bad for a nobody with no positive contributions to make!

Dee has the patience of a procession of saints.

(I bet Madame de Farge's 'Fitzy Red-Alert Meter' is vibrating like crazy).

 

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Post by Dee on Mar 7, 2014 at 5:20am

Horrie skates on thin ice at times I agree, but he also makes an attempt at contributing something useful to the SBC debate. "sarah" almost never does but I shall let her post stand and see why happens.

 

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 7, 2014 at 11:04am

Dee sorry to fill up this forum with lengthy posts. You are trying to provide a forum where it would have been appropriate for the topic to be the raison d’ètre and so postings would stick to the point and refer to this forum topic. But this seems beyond some (other forums have suffered a similar slide to irrelevance or oblivion from a similar contagion.
Now for yet more stuff needing to be responded to:
Bill “ Are you saying there were tramways along the western bank of SBC between the SBC road ? Have you seen them yourself?”
read what I said carefully the tramway I referred to was between the road and the Creek, ie east of the road, so yes it can also be described as west of the creek and to the west side of the road.
I pointed out that there was a significant tramway running some distance along between the road and the creek – ie on the eastern side of the road. Remnants of the tramway were what became a well worn “path” that went passed the now No 3 Kelly Tree.
The tramway path is pictured in Evans work (and a pic included in the CSI Team’s report from the Evans work – with copyright acknowledged!
The team also spent considerable time across the road on its western side as we were also aware of another tramway some 200 – 500 metres to the west (These tramways joined the main tramway down around Ryan’s Creek and they serviced the Toombullup Mill and the Tatong mill).
YES we found and followed the bed of this western tramway as a matter of interest.
The tramway was also explained by the late Charlie Engleke who provided information about a loading area for logs to be placed on tramway carts and where the path of the tramway was and where it moved to higher ground (where sections of toay’s SBC road now are. The position of one of the loading “mounds” can still be pointed to for “proof”.

Bill again, read my words carefully (or do you simply jump before you comprehend English statements? Quote “Kelvyn, really, are you now saying your site does not include the Kelly tree in your site?”
I never said anything of the sort as you would undoubtedly know from all the material you have seen (including an early draft of the team’s report and subsequent postings in other forums over the past years) The team has always been able to demonstrate that the existence of the third and current “Kelly tree” can be shown in the background of early pics and can be seen in the background – there is a distance between the police camp site and this tree. So yes it is in the background BUT THE SITE HAS NEVER BEEN REFERRED TO BY THIS CAPTION – SEEMS IT WAS YOU WHO IN YET ANOTHER FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO RIDICULE THE TEAM’S SITE YOU USE(D) this caption. THE TEAM HAS CONSISTENTLY REFERRED TO THE CAMP SITE AS THE CAMP SITE.
Keep it up if you must Bill, let’s ensure that it becomes more and more difficult for viewers to get through what is the “important stuff” and the “Noise” you, and Horrie (has he whispered in your ear yet?) put here.

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 7, 2014 at 11:08am

To Glen, Gill, Sarah ("wink wink") & others.

Why do either of you bother?
Can you not see you have ALL been enticed by Denheld. This is not the place to state your case.

Denheld, Gill is no fool. However I feel I cannot say the same about you.

Horrie, over to you! LMFAO

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 7, 2014 at 1:34pm

Horrie, I was referring to your post regarding the CSI team, though since you mentioned it;

Brendon, what is so offensive about saying "Sarah, you are on your last warning from Dee..."? That's a fact, not an opinion.

It would appear that Sarah is right that you are running this forum. You post as a Guest, so what gives you the authority to make threats to a member as Sarah stated she was? Why not answer her question? It is a simple question to a statement you made about this thread and relates to this thread. I don't see the problem. Your jibes at her are not adding to this debate, only distracting from it.

Brian I agree with your sentiments. This whole debate looks contrived.

Also, over to you Horrie.

 

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Post by Guest on Mar 7, 2014 at 1:46pm

I wish I had taken a camera when I visited SBC 20 years ago. The area today is much different to what I remember.

Past the then parking spot near the Kelly tree, the dozed/graded road swung east over the creek missing the hilly rise. Soon it reached a flat dozed/graded road running North-South whch ran parallel to SBC and which had a painted sign Stringybark Creek Road. The connecting road that somehow crossed the creek has disappeared altogether. The present Stringybark Creek Road with the larger car park and toilets must have replaced the one I saw further east.

I keep returning to the point that the area has been one of constant change. Bill assured us that the general topography is the same, but obviously there have been considerable lesser changes. How these affect the observations and comparisons shown in this thread I can only guess. Bill's site being less accessible 20 years ago in theory.

 

 

More to come in due course
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