The Great Debate about Stringy-Bark Creek   PAGE 6
This is a true copy of a forum debate about SBC where the Police were shot by the Kelly gang in 1878. These following 25 pages were lost when one of the participants complained to forum host Despite numerous efforts to have the whole forum re-instated by me, this topic was one of several threads on DEE's 'Ned Kelly Truth forum' that questioned the many mythologized elements of the Kelly story, and is the reason for much personal attack on those that may have alternative views of how Kelly history is recorded. Bill Denheld May 2014

Man stands at fireplace of one of two huts, the police tent stood behind where this photo was taken.The Kelly gang came from left of little hill above.


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Bill said 

PS, Image.
It shows Kelvyn Gill with his back to the only slope along SBC which proves the true site.

Hold ya horses
The above quote is in fact NOT true. One other slope is evident not far from the current kelly tree. This slope ties in perfectly with other contributing factors to be the "true site".




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Post by Guest on Mar 1, 2014 at 9:12pm

Kelvyn, thank you kindly for your post - and thanks to Bill for more fascinating background.

I first visited the Kelly Tree site nearly 20 years ago when most of the immediate area was choked by undergrowth and, in some places, impenetrable saplings and vines near the Kelly Tree. I felt disappointed.

The scene thus looked nothing like the Burman photos. The area had been cleared when I visited in 2012. My point being that the area has been one of constant change over 136 years - and even in recent years.

The police camp, according to McIntyre was "in a small cleared space". He added "There was a quantity of speargrass 5ft. high about 35 yards from the fire, and on the south side of the clearing". Speargrass is foraged by cattle, but even so, there are two outcrops not far from the Two Huts site. One is to the south and probably around that distance (40 metres).

Doubtless, Bill will correct me if I am wrong.


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Post by Guest on Mar 1, 2014 at 9:40pm

Brian, dear fellow, you have to read what people say carefully.

Bill did not say there were no other slopes along SBC. He did say his photo shows the only slope [that fits with Burman perfectly] proving the true site.

The slopes around the Kelly Tree are much higher and don't fit Burman at all.



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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 12:03am

From the sublime to the ridiculous. Nobody here will believe this. Its from the NKF boards site, by Poorflower.
No wonder this whole subject goes round in ever-widening, jumbled circles:


" Thank you for the information, I don't know why Bill wont answer me as I am only a poorflower.
Its so easy to use his supplied models and theory's to destroy his own theory.
For anybody who wants to visit SBC, this is all you have to do.

First remove all the snakes and leeches
then place two posts in post holes.

Place a mannequin behind the pile of rocks, this represents the standing man.
the height of the man is 5 feet eight inches or 1.73 mts.

Note: This pile of rocks is missing in the Burman photograph, it measures 2.4 mts x 1.5 mts or 8 feet x 5 feet, and about 60cm heigh.

Measure 60 feet or 18.288 mts North from right hand side of the other pile of rocks, that's where the Green photo is supposed to have been taken.
Measure 43 feet or 13.1 mts North from centre of pile of rocks that's where the the Pink photo is supposed to have been taken.

The Burman photograph is 32 feet or 9.75 mts wide, now measure the height of the man 5 feet eight inches or 1.73 mts from the mannequin's feet, this gives the right hand border of the Burman photograph.

Now from the right hand border measure 32 feet or 9.75 mts , this gives the left hand border of the Burman photograph.

Now walk back to the 60 feet or 18.288 mts mark and without falling down the bank where nobody would place a camera, start to laugh as you see why this site does not match the Burman photograph.
( Poorflower)

peterwright, Junior Member,
Clear, concise and correct.


Holy Smoke! The Burman photograph is 32 feet wide! What are 'mts'? The abbreviation for metres is 'm'. This would be comedy festival stuff except these people are serious. Some of them can't spell which makes dialogue difficult. Most amusing of all, many of the people on that site think Pooflower is a genius who has solved the puzzle! God save us all!


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Post by sarah on Mar 2, 2014 at 3:59am

Horrie dear fellow, maybe you should read Brian’s posts more carefully, or slowly as you once stated you had to with one of Kelvyn’s posts.

If you knew Alan Crichton, you would know that the piece you reposted here was done in jest. Alan has a weird sense of humour and likes to use poetic license to add flavour to his writings.

Possibly Poorflower’s post is a bit much for you to comprehend as was Kelvyn’s that I referred to above. If the best you can do is pick on her for writing ‘mts’ instead of ‘m’, then that is very sad.

Bill also complains about posts on other forums being deleted, yet calls for Dee to delete posts here. Hmmmm!

In your post above from the other forum you forgot to add;

To answer your question PF "Bill is a full member here and the account is fully working, so there is no reason for no answer. Admin"
Read more:

So it would appear that Mr. Denheld is running away from Poorflower as he has found a gullible group here who do not comprehend (as you have shown), all the data being put forth.


Last Edit: Mar 2, 2014 at 11:51am by sarah


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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 10:45am

When does he stop?
Now he insinuates that "The Beechworth festival’ was being run by mates of CSI, so what hope would I have of that?".
Two words covers a detailed response ABSOLUTE CRAP.
And on to a selective diatribe about the "how", "why" and so on as to the CSI team. H
How long have you got Horrie ? I could now launch into a blow-by-blow 20 page description of the history about the CSI team and about this serial "I am always right" statements. No doubt you have the time and patience to read all that BD commits to writing (And deflecting you and others from the topic of this thread) - same technique, unable to address substantive points so obfuscation is the weak man's way of debating (a politician's first line of defence when unable or unwilling to address the substantive matter/question) But BD is not a politician's bootlace in my opinion.
I will point out that the CSI team was invited to present by the Beechworth organising committee on the recommendation we were told of person or persons assisting the committee (a book launch was scheduled in the time slot the CSI team was given which was cancelled; we were a last minute replacement! SO BD IS WRONG YET AGAIN!
And an apology to readers - I mentioned in an earlier post that the SLV had two copies of the CSI Team report, no only one, they do have however two copies of my book - well worth reading if you want ALL FACTUAL MATERIAL to do with Stringybark and of course the whole story of the Kelly saga. (Gary Dean will sell you a copy or the Beechworth Gaol).
Last point for now: The "Spear Grass" is correctly identified as Red Fruit Saw Sedge - Gahnia sieberiana.
There is only one corridor along the road where this species is in abundance. The corridor has a very characteristic occurance - a damp long term underground water source which in good years of sufficient precipitation becomes observable also at ground level. And this corridor can be traced and seen on an east west traverse going under the road (where a very observable wet area occurs on occasions which is in the centre of the road). Cattle won't touch this Ganhia species - there is another grass that "looks like" "Spear Grass" also found in the precinct - a softer and palatable to the Bovines. This information can be found in a good detailed dictionary of flora.



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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 1:08pm

Kelvyn, please don't give us a 20-page history of this continuing brouhaha. That is the problem.
It is always about the past and never the future.

I personally would be happy with a precise, scale map showing your Kelly Tree site marked with a cross.

There is a large-scale topographical map I believe, but I would be happy also with a tracing that is accurate.

I see that a new member on NKF boards, 'Veritas', is so 'amused' by Pooflower's 'lucid, most understandable explanation and the measurements, a mannequin', above, he or she says 'I think the CSI blokes should recruit you to their team'.

Something tells me you CSI blokes might not fall for this - but who can say.




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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 1:45pm

Kelvyn, you said in an earlier post that a botanist had helped CSI.

That was in relation to a young tree in a Burman photograph that has grown and, you claim, is on CSI's Kelly Tree site today. An arborialist might have been more helpful.

I presume, though that your botanist identified the 'Gahnia sieberiana' which is Sword grass, and not speargrass.

It is possible, I suppose, that McIntyre misidentified the speargrass 35 yards south of the small clearing upon which the police camp sat. Who can say?

Each of these issues, which continue to be introduced, would baffle experts let alone amateurs. But its always one step forward, two steps back.




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Post by Dee on Mar 2, 2014 at 4:08pm

You guys all realise this is never going to end don't you? Part of the reason is you never stick to a topic.

Lets just address the poor flower issue where she sets out various measurements and so on. The purpose of this I think is to show that the place that Burman must have been standing to take the photos, if Bills interpretation is correct, is somewhere impossible. I am very sceptical, not because I can figure out what these measurements mean or where they come from, but because the crazy sort of thing that Poorflower has put up before as "evidence" - the slanting trees - makes me doubt she has the faintest idea about logic or research but being hopeless about slanting trees doesn't mean she couldn't be right about this so I am curious to hear what Bill and others have to say about it.

The other thing I want to add about Poorflower and other contributors here is that being able to criticise Bills model - or the CSI Model - adds nothing at all to the strength of your own case. Both cases have weaknesses and strengths and in the end it comes down to which has the greatest number of strengths and the fewest weaknesses. I have said before I think that Bill has been remarkably open with putting up his evidence and reasoning and I would hope the CSI team will decide to keep putting up their side.


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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 5:31pm

Poorflower is not a contributor hear and cannot be because she was banned from this site. What a joke!!!!!!

Why doesn't Bill answer her on the site when she has asked him too? Scared to face his demons?




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Post by Dee on Mar 2, 2014 at 7:53pm

Henry I must correct you : NOBODY has been banned or blocked or in any way prevented from contributing to debate on the Ned Kelly Truth Forum.

I don't know why Bill doesn't respond on Poorflowers site but he may be worried that he will be treated there like I was - riddiculed, attacked and denied a fair hearing and then kicked out. Given the way I was treated there I don't think any fair minded person would feel comfortable on that site. But Poorflower can post here, as I have stated before and I will make sure she gets a fair hearing like everyone else here does.



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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 8:24pm

Thank you Dee, your comment about "which has the greatest number of strengths and the fewest weaknesses" Is pretty much on the button. Indeed that is why debate is not sustained (or sustainable) with BD as he has nowhere near the number of items to be considered compared with the CSI Team's work.
For Horrie. I raise you by an additional 25 years as I have been a keen observer and visitor to the Stringybark Creek area for 45 years and have pics dating back that far and of course post then - albums full.
And a bit of further info about the grasses :
The spear grass of which McIntyre speaks belongs to the Gahnia genus, sometimes reaching seven feet (about 2 metres) in height, and peculiarly adapted to natural, wet forest clearings that are subjected occasionally to periods of drought and consequent significant soil moisture loss.
Below the road reserve, the Gahnia species of the corridor diminishes as the sloping terrain descends to the shaded creek bed. Swamp tolerant native plant species now regenerating in the upper corridor include:
Mountain Swamp Gum (Eucalyptus camphora)
Blackwood (Acacia melanoxylon)
Red Fruit Saw Sedge (Gahnia sieberiana) – the “spear grass”
Tasman Flax Lily (Dianella tasmanica)
Dogwood (Cassinia aculeata)
Forest Goodenia (Goodenia hederacea), and
Native Violet (Viola hederaceae).

The spear grass to which McIntyre and other commentators refer should not be confused with the common spear grasses of north eastern Victorian farmlands which belong to the Austrostipa genus.

Along the shaded creek line, another Gahnia species can be found – Gahnia radula, commonly known as the thatch saw sedge. Fishbone water fern (Blechnum nudum) is prominent in marshy areas along the creek line.

As to scale diagrams and maps - get the CSI report for quite a few scaled diagrams - 1. Surveyor's Feature plan and Stringybark Creek Road Long Section: 2. Thomas McIntyre's scale layout of the police camp site (Vic Pol have the original); 3. Various maps and surveyor's notes 1884 - 1931; 4. Precinct maps/diagrams (3 of) to scale made by the CSI Team to demonstrate and prove the camp site location and the determined position of Burman's camera and of the later photographs named the "Cuddon" photograph" and "The Beautiful Mansfield" photograph; 5. Aerial view of the area showing important references; 6. Topographic map - Vicmap Whitfield 8124-S. 1:50000 map series.
So go for it, bite the bullet , help the Glenrowan Community by buying the report from The Glenrowan Cobb and Co gift shop of Gary Dean's.
Botanist /Arborist - both suitably qualified to make assessment and comment on Flora (which includes trees.
Now wait for BD to tell us all about his enthusiastic foray with a metal detector at an area which may/may not have been the site of the police tent.
Oh and another bit of info:
During the fires a few years ago DSE sent in along the western side of the road bulldozers and a fire break about 50 meteres wide was bulldozed for a considerable distance which included going past the picnic area well up and past BD,s site - so any "evidence" would have been well and truly lost, as were many swamp gums on the western side, (these gums were in the swampy corridor running west (the high side) down to the Creek).
Ah, so much info to digest and far too much for here, it's all in the report.
I am sure the Team would happily talk to Poorflower. I concur with Veritass words by the way. Poorflower shows diligence and an analytical assessment using measured distances (M or mts) to demonstrate her proposition.
More than armchair experts do.


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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 8:32pm

Uh-Oh! The deadly Kelly lunatic fringe has turned up. They don't like rationale discussion that shows them up. Many of the issues about the SBC police camp centre on measurements. One basic major unit of measurement is a metre. For that zany kook Poorflower to use the abbreviation 'mts' for metres shows she cannot even bother to discover the correct abbreviation ('m') that everyone would understand. "Henry" mistakenly thinks Poorflower has been banned. The hate campaigns against bill and the Macfarlane book are beyond bizarre.


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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 9:08pm

Lest we forget or have you forgotten? Dee
On the other hand the more i read thats posted by Poor Flower, the more offended I am by what she writes, by her personal attacks on yourself (Bill), and by the quality of her "research". I cannot believe that an honourable person would attack another person on a forum where that person is unable to respond -

On the bad Attitudes forum Poor Flower is proving to be a rather unpleasant individual, continuing to attack Bill and his Two Huts site, with her completely non-sensical theories about tree angles and grass height. She even uses the old magicians trick of concealing the objects of interest ( under a tarp ) and making predictions based on what we are supposed to believe is underneath. And one of her supporters posts breathlessly "The public needs to be made aware of these made up facts" .

I had noticed on other forums where Poor Flower had been posting, that because she was a schoolgirl at the time people were bending over backwards not to hurt her feelings. However now she is a bit older and apparently an adult, and its time to tell her the truth about her theories : they are absurd nonsense and a joke. No professional historian, archaeologist or academic of any persuasion would regard them as anything other than amateurish, and worthless.

So why talk about it here? Poorflower has already been tried and convicted.



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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 10:01pm

That's complete baloney, Henry! Pooflower still hasn't been banned.

Why can't you get your facts straight before posting rubbish here?
Why haven't you apologised to Dee yet?


Madame de Farge

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Post by Guest on Mar 2, 2014 at 11:45pm

Why does my trusty FITZY RED-ALERT METER go crazy everytime I visit this thread? It sounds like a geiger-counter at the Fukushima Nuclear Plant.

Dee, don't underestimate this bozo. He has been attacking Bill, Ian Jones and Ian Macfarlane for yonks. You are just his latest victim.
You only know him as "Fred". He has many, many faces. His hatred seethes with bile, misleading statements and goalpost shifting. Get a flak jacket. 


Shonk Watcher

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Post by Guest on Mar 3, 2014 at 2:14am

Dee, never forget that the nameless Admin on the NKF boards colluded with "Fred" against you; and with Pooflower against Bill. There are a handful of other Kelly site operators who know all about Fitzy's questionable activities and look the other way.

Collude: Work secretly with somebody: to cooperate with somebody secretly in order to do something i------l or undesirable.


A photographer
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Post by Guest on Mar 3, 2014 at 10:06am

Covering the rock heaps with blue tarps was a sensible idea by poorflower: It enabled her photographs to show quite clearly the two rock piles which are the issue it seems at hand. Its not the old magicians trick of concealing the objects of interest ( under a tarp )but of a sensible researcher making sure the those with a limited ability to see stuff in amongst almost camouflage caused by the blending in of coloured objects of the same colour, its called background and foreground.
If you dim-wits need to suggest that predictions based on what we are supposed to believe is underneath, then it would seem to me that you have absolutely no grasp of the topic - its rocks !! which for those who have taken the time to study all the postings here and in other forums would readily agree about.


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Post by sarah on Mar 3, 2014 at 2:00pm

Horrie, you berate poorflower over ‘mts’ instead of ‘m’ and say she cannot spell. What about this little beauty from you, ‘arborialist’ Don’t you mean an arborist, or (less commonly) arboriculturist? I think you owe Poorflower an apology!

An arborialist might have been more helpful.

Freddo, what is your claim to fame, apart from deriding other people that are obviously way above you intellectually? Why have you made a reference to MacFarlane in this topic? That is truly bizarre!

The hate campaigns against bill and the Macfarlane book are beyond bizarre.
What’s with Henry? First he sticks up for Poorflower, now he attacks here. Have I missed something or is this typical bizarre behavior from Kelly haters?

Freddo, how would you know who was banned or not, you are a guest and should act accordingly! Or are you hiding something? Madame de Farge, so typical of those forums we can’t mention, you blame everything on that poor fellow. Is he hiding under your bed as well?

It looks like that poor fellow you all despise is hiding under ‘Shonk Watcher’s bed too. That is more slander against him and I hope he is reading this.

Where is this forum going? It has just turned into a hate fest! Dee, you might get a knock on your door by police wanting all the names of people slandering this person! The place you advertised for members was a big mistake and they will bring you and your forum down. You know the old saying, “if you lay down with dogs, expect to get fleas’.


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Post by Guest on Mar 3, 2014 at 2:06pm

Not sure I




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